Dear @gitlab, after reading this, I am ashamed to be using your product:

gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitl

We will stop using it as soon as we can manage to and I will stop recommending you to others. Unlike you, we don’t associate with folks incompatible with our values.

Shame on you.

#gitlab

@aral @gitlab
Why do you feel this is wrong (doing business with someone who does not share your values)?
I'd dare say this is a very broad concept.
I'll risk saying everyone in this thread has published GPLed code, and it can be used by anyone, regardless of their intentions. Should we restrict our licenses because of this?

PS - I'm not by any means implying you are somehow wrong, I'm just trying to understand your perspective!

@FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab people are actually talking about creating licenses with ethical restrictions!

Because we live in a time when software developed for innocuous reasons can easily be used for the purposes of mass surveillance, ethnic cleansing, state censorship, etc.

Moral people who build tools and run services are asking themselves how they contribute to such things and how they can prevent it.

@nev @FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab I mean licenses with ethical restrictions are a bad idea, but for different reasons

@nev @FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab how do you handle different incompatible ethical licenses? or ones that have, say, SWERF or TERF bullshit in them? being non-viral could fix this, but what's the point then? how do you translate ethical concerns into legal terms, nevermind enforcing them? dealing with ethical problems at the license level is a mistake

@a_breakin_glass @nev @FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab minimal terms, like the UNHRC, and not including software people don't want you to? intellectual property is theft and the gpl is a clever way to use it to subvert itself but we're never gonna have a perfect way to guarantee all freedoms except those that restrict freedoms

I think it's good and admirable to try and I'd love to see someone getting in trouble for breaking copyright law because they used my code to bomb a hospital

@amsomniac
> I'd love to see someone getting in trouble for breaking copyright law because they used my code to bomb a hospital

I've never seen a better argument for the pointlessness of applying morality licenses to software. Either;
a) the Bad Thing done with the software is already illegal under more powerful laws than copyright
OR
b) the Bad Thing is being done by (or for) a state who hold themselves above the law including copyright law.

@a_breakin_glass @nev @FPinaMartins @aral @gitlab

@strypey @amsomniac @a_breakin_glass @nev @FPinaMartins "people who are OK with doing evil thing, would be OK breaking copyright law" is a good point.

But often plenty of people are OK with helping the person who does the evil thing without being OK doing the evil thing themselves. Ethical source licences would be effective to stop that intermediary from using your software, and hence limit the evil person's actions

@ebel
> IBM & the Holocaust?

... is a classic example of scenario b) from the OP.
Copyright licenses could not have prevented IBM helping the German government with the holocaust because the German government (and their designated agents) are not subject to copyright law. Even if they were, they would have just used emergency powers under martial law to cancel any enforcement attempted against IBM.

@strypey IBM is a US corp. Surely if it was using US copyrighted material with such a clause, then it (the US corp) won't be able to profit from doing a deal with them.

Yes, the German government at the time could ignore that, and take what they want. But IBM wouldn't have been able to financially benefit from it.

@ebel
> Surely if it was using US copyrighted material with such a clause, then it (the US corp) won't be able to profit from doing a deal with them.

Why? US copyright law doesn't apply outside the US.

@strypey But it applies to the US company in the US.

e.g. imagine I (was in USA &) wrote a FLOSS library with such a “do no evil” clause. IBM US uses it to make a software product. They want to sell it to someone like the Nazis. Can't I sue IBM in the US for violating my copyright?

Sure Nazi Germany can just steal the software product, but IBM in the USA can't financially benefit, right?

@ebel BTW
> FLOSS library with such a “do no evil” clause.

... is a contradiction. A library that doesn't grant freedom 0 isn't free, libre, or open, as those terms are applied in software licensing. So it's not "FLOSS" either.

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@strypey Yes I know that goes against Freedom 0.😛 I mean, “Imagine something like the GPL/BSD which had such a clause”

@ebel I know what you meant. It would be proprietary software with source available, like Microsoft's "Shared Source":
wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_sour

Those who don't learn their history are doomed to repeat it.

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