I already had some discussion in with hackers from germany about CoCs.
And we mostly agreed: We thought that we don't need it, since the CoCs mostly state just basics of respectful behavior. After seeing the discussions we somehow were disillusionised and saw that even those basic stuff should be clearly stated.
@bg Someone said "if you have good people, you won't have any problems". I asked "define 'good (people)' and 'no problems'." 😉🙂
I hear this argument also from time to time but consider it really shortsighted. For me it sounds like: "you don't need privacy if you have nothing to hide and do nothing wrong", "we don't need laws because we all know how to behave", "we don't need copyleft because we all share our software anyway and always",...
@ebel Nope. I believe the German Chaos Computer Congress works on a CoC and there are talks in the KiF, an assembly of German computer science student representitives, about creating a CoC.
@snaums that's interesting, I'll have to look into that.
I did hear there were problems with the last CCCongress about enforcing a CoC... So mixed bag?
@ebel Maybe the reason, why that person thinks only English speakers care about that, is that most OpenSource developers need to communicate in English, so more people understand them. That could give the impression, that all developers were English or American.
@snaums This person is from an EU non English speaking country, so they know there are non UK/US programmers!
But has mostly only seen US people advocating for a CoC.
@ebel I think @sphakos might also be interested in talking with whoever you find, because they have encountered clients who claimed that things like "microaggressions" and "pronouns" are distinctly US issues. It seems like there are a lot of Europeans who believe that only Americans have trouble with civility?
@jamey ung. There's *plenty* of European social justice people! 🤦🏻♀️
(caveat: IMO there are things which are rude/abrupt in USA, but aren't in UK/IE. Slight difference in what counts as "welcoming". But (eg) misgendering someone? FFS)
@ebel To be clear, I'm not claiming "all Europeans" by any means 😅 but a remarkably common argument in CoC discussions is "I'm European [or some specific country], these things aren't rude in my culture." So it's not about whether that statement is true or representative of the people it claims to be representing, but it comes up so often that it would be nice to have hard evidence to counter it.
I was especially horrified at the comment about pronouns, though, yes. 😲
@jamey @ebel Enough francophone people want gender-neutral pronouns and "inclusive writing" more generally that the Académie has had to condemn them for being agents of chaos. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/inclusive-writing-france-feminism/545048/
@jamey yeah I know "not all Europeans". 🙂
There are cases where (eg) someone in an EU country might say something that's racist in USA due to history of the term, that the EUian mightn't know. (and vice versa!)
But I've seen things like "In my country it's OK to say that/do that to women", and that's a "tough shit, you're in the wrong" IMO
@ebel Yeah, I didn't want to outright argue about "not all Europeans," but, 🤣
Anyway, I agree on all counts. Regional history matters and it's understandable when someone from elsewhere is unaware! Although people also need to understand that we can cause real harm without intending to and without understanding how we harmed someone, and it's important to acknowledge and repair that harm as best we can and try to avoid doing it again.
@jamey I think it's informative how someone reacts if they mess up. If they get defensive, saying they should be allowed because of their origin, that's bad. But if they listen and try to take it on board and try to learn, that's much better.
@ebel Yeah, it's quite natural to feel defensive when I'm told I've screwed up, but it isn't a helpful reaction.
I like my spouse's post on this topic: http://sage.thesharps.us/2013/06/23/dont-be-a-jerk/
I mean, I like my spouse's posts on a lot of topics, but that one is the immediately relevant one 😅
@jamey I recommend "Panti's Noble Call" (it's on YouTube). There's a bit where she says "everyone (incl me) is almost certainly homophobic because you grew up in such a homophobic society, and are unlikely to have escaped that".
If/when someone points something out, be ready to step back and reflect.
@ebel I was listening to the recent Rebecca Sugar interview when you suggested "Panti's Noble Call", but I just got to it and wow, that was very well presented. Thank you for the suggestion!
@ebel I'm part of GNOME's Code of Conduct committee, fwiw. This is definitely not only about English-speaking countries. It seems that many people across countries appreciate CoCs, and the few loud ones who don't... will be loud regardless of location.
Most conferences in Germany have a code of conduct and I think this is the same in most other countries. I would say that a CoC is pretty standard for every notable (tech) event these days. Everyone who doesn't have one yet should really consider to catch up.
@ebel I'd point your contact in the direction of the Dutch, and the Nordic countries.
(Not a non-native of English, but with long-time experience living in Europe - anyone saying "only English speaking countries do ____" is consignable to the "do not take seriously" bin, for me.)
Moytura. Destroy the old gods.